Dust-Up with History Prof over Rebel Flag Continues

Dust-Up with History Prof over Rebel Flag Continues

by DC Dave

This is a continuation of my email exchanges with a history professor who was formerly a colleague of mine in North Carolina. I taught economics. The first four rounds are chronicled in “Johnny Reb and Billy Yank Flag Debate Continues.”

Round 5

The History Professor

Yes, there is some common ground.  I acknowledged the individual right to display the flag early, citing Gov. Haley also. So we agree.  I still believe that the fact that a right exists does not mean it’s proper always to exercise it.  If that is anti-free speech, so be it.

Regarding the state of race relations.  Many white Southerners, some of them Republican politicians, acknowledged the pain of their black compatriots and urged the removal of the flag; this is positive.

On the other hand, here is support for your position:  The other evening I drove highway 97 to a Mudcats game.  I use that road several times a year, but not since the shootings and the flag controversy.  In the past, I have noticed no Confederate flags on display.  This time there were five.  What the motivations of the displayers were, I don’t know.  But most blacks would take it only one way.

Regarding historians:  Of course, the use of phrases like “timorous eunuchs” is polemical.  But one must take the consequences of them nevertheless; people might take them seriously, as I did.  In your latest there are some qualifiers (historians “who have addressed the subjects”), but you still often slander the whole profession.

Yes, some of the ones I named do not address the causes of the War or the Forrestal case.  That’s the point.  Your criticism did not exempt them.  Friedlander studies the Holocaust, Lerner the role of women in the Middle Ages.  I don’t know Engerman’s position on the causes of the War.

Genovese is a wonderful example of my point.  There is Genovese of the ‘70s, and then Genovese of the late ‘80s and ‘90s.  Forgive an anecdote that might help explain his evolution.  In about 1976-7, he and Willie Lee Rose were at dinner at my parents’ house.  Pa invited xxxxx* and me to come.  I remember two things vividly.   First, Genovese was quite a raconteur.  Second, when we were talking about his surprising treatment of slave religion, he became philosophical.  He worried that atheists like himself had no answer to the finality of death, unlike the devoutly religious.  Sometime later, he rejoined the Catholic Church.  Perhaps this was the start of his conservatism.  But which Genovese is the eunuch?

After all is said and done, nothing you’ve said about the origins of the Civil War changes what I, and many others, believe:

–          No slavery, no war

–          No war, no Confederate flag

–          No flag, no flag as present symbol of slavery and racism.

Finally, on Forrestal and others.  I meant “relatively unimportant” in this way:  I believe that the most important question historians ask is, “what caused it, and what did it cause?”  You and others think the death of, for example, Forrestal was caused by either fearful communists or agents of Israel.  If you’re right, then his death was an episode either of the Cold War or the controversy over Israel’s founding.

But what did Forrestal’s death cause?  There were obviously some things – grief for family and friends, for example.  And, perhaps, an example of government lying, of which there have been many.  But I haven’t seen anything that takes it much beyond this.

 

My Reply

I have said my piece on the “Civil War,” which includes, I remind you once again, my 2008 article, “Mencken and More on Lincoln’s Speech.”

I very much appreciate your honesty in reporting what you call the support for my position that you recently witnessed.  You may correct me if I’m wrong, but I take that to mean my position that race relations have worsened rather than improved in the wake of the event in Charleston.  The evidence you present is the sudden blossoming of five Confederate flags upon your rather short route to the local minor league baseball park.   In spite of what you might have picked up from an open-minded reading of B’Man’s “What Does the Stars and Bars Represent?” and from this old friend’s exchanges, whom you say you take seriously, this phenomenon seems to have you puzzled.

Once again I must say that you have to be in a small minority on that one.  Obviously, it’s a conscious reaction to the national campaign, led by the mainstream news media, against the Confederate battle flag.  White Southerners naturally resent having what many have come to regard as a symbol of themselves and their culture and heritage dragged into the mud based upon what one deranged person allegedly did.  What you saw in your little corner of North Carolina was on display in central Florida a couple of weeks ago in the form of an eight-mile-long Confederate flag rally comprised of some 4,500 people.   I don’t think that got a lot of media play, nor did the apparent murder of black Confederate flag supporter Anthony Hervey by fellow blacks in Mississippi, a real sign of deteriorating race relations, which I don’t think the Florida flag caravan or the flag display you witnessed were.

None of these national news organs who, like you, take the aggrieved-black position with respect to the Confederate battle flag are owned and run or in any way controlled by actual black people.  One that is, the Black Muslim Final Call, takes a very different view on the deeper origins of black slavery in the United States than one is likely to find in the mainstream news media or in the approved history books.

I would like to think that you are selling black people short when you say that most of them would take this new flag display only one way.  From what you have written previously, I take it that the “one way” would be as some form of unexplainable recrudescent racism, a celebration of slavery, as a “flag of hate.” No statements to the contrary on the part of the displayers of the flags count for anything.  Empathy must forever be a one-way street.

This is not exactly a blueprint for racial harmony.

Toward the improvement of race relations, the next time you are together with those black folks you frequently meet with you could try to dampen any outrage you might encounter over these new displays of the flag by sharing my views with them, but, as I say, I really think you have underestimated them and that it will not be necessary.

Regarding American historians and my use of H.L. Mencken’s disparaging quote, I am frankly astonished that you would defend the historians in their ongoing cover-up of the obvious assassination in 1949 of America’s first secretary of defense, James Forrestal.  Somehow, I don’t think Mencken would be astonished.  I suppose you would offer the same sort of defense for the historical blackout of the attempted assassination of President Harry Truman in 1947 by the Zionist Stern Gang.

 

* Another former colleague in the history department.

 

David Martin

July 27, 2015

 

Read Round 4 here:

https://buelahman.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/johnny-reb-and-billy-yank-debate-continues/

 

Read Rounds 1 through 3 here:

https://buelahman.wordpress.com/2015/07/09/the-rebel-flag-and-the-civil-war-debated/

 

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26 thoughts on “Dust-Up with History Prof over Rebel Flag Continues

  1. The Professor defends early with the “We called him Pa” defense and then moves in strong with a tunnel-vision three point combo! But the alleged sociopath DC Dave doesn’t waver, twisting the idea of empathy to his own narrow-minded ends!

    A much shorter response from The Professor in round 5, after round 3’s plea to not be associated with the site at all was demolished! Surely this is a dust up for the ages, ladies and gentlemen! If you’re not watching by now, you’re living in a tiny glass mainstream media conglomerate that would have had Pacquiao win his last fight!

    If you haven’t read up until now, wonder at the glory that is round 5 of this dust up!

    Like

  2. How does this story ‘advance’ race relations?

    Akron ‘Mob And Rob’ With 30-70 Kids Caught On Video

    Akron Police are investigating a “mob and rob” at a Circle K and some of the incident was captured on video posted to Facebook. It all happened early Sunday morning at the store on West Market Street.

    At one point witnesses who shot the video thought there were 40 children, but the estimates are anywhere from 30 to 70 juveniles all at once rushing into the Circle K at about 12:30 a.m.

    A couple was shooting the video from their car after pumping gas at the store. The video shows kids running around the parking lot. Many appear to have items in their hands coming in and out of the store. Some are even throwing those items in the parking lot….

    http://govtslaves.info/akron-mob-and-rob-with-30-70-kids-caught-on-video/

    Now, the video of black teens showing why ‘Black Lives Matter.”

    As for the Confederate flag, like someone already pointed out, if not for the Civil War, legal slavery would’ve continued for another 20+ years in the USA.

    Like

    • My guess is somewhat fewer than 20 years for continuation of slavery. Without the Southern states to block it, the remaining Union would have probably passed an amendment to the Constitution outlawing slavery, and there it would have gone in the Union states of Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware and Missouri. The underground railroad of escape from slavery would have thus been drastically shortened and that, alone, would have made the system much harder to maintain. It makes secession as a means for perpetuating slavery look pretty stupid, if that was what secession was all about. There were also internal pressures within the South to end slavery as well as significant external pressure. The British Empire had outlawed slavery by an act of Parliament in 1833.

      The calculus varies depending upon whether we are talking about a secession of the original seven or of all eleven eventual Confederate states. Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas did not secede until Lincoln forced their hands by levying them for troops to help “put down the rebellion.”

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  3. Dave, your friend’s dismissal or downplaying of govt. lying in the case of Forrestal seems to me a poor excuse for supporting ‘The State’ and the status quo. He must be a real gem in political correctness and a timid no-balls to boot. Sorry.

    From the mouth of a black babe which I picked up from one of BMan’s earlier links, forgot the name:
    “So how has the manipulation of white guilt helped us? Not at all. It has put us right back. Again, I think of the civil rights victories as a period in time when we talked about self-sufficiency, self-determination. Where we took it on our own. … We achieved that through hard work, initiative … and so forth. And the minute we achieved it, we turned around, manipulated white guilt, and put ourselves right back in a dependent position on that society.”

    And now, white guilt has to be perpetuated by trying not to offend the nicely tanned people? Give me a break. Someone is stirring the race pot, and it ain’t the whities. I am no flag waver myself. But if I were, I would fly the ancient symbol with the red and white background. If you straighten that out a bit, voila, the Southern Cross appears sans the blue and the stars. I’m only half kidding. Pass me a rum and coke, please.

    Like

  4. Rum and Coke? I need me some Russian Standard Vodka to put up with the drivel the “history Professor” espouses.
    “If that is anti free speech so be it.”
    Wow what a sell out. Guys like HP are the reason we are sitting in quicksand. I can add him to my list of people to be pissed about. The fact that such a well educated individual could be so misguided is actually quite shocking. So here we go!

    “the fact that a right exists does not mean it’s proper always to exercise it. ”
    Who gets to decide what and when “proper” is? Hammertime…propertime…Is there some sort of board or committee for proper?” (or pants you need to wear?)

    The civil war was about rebellion….Nope can’t thank my jr hi history teachers for that one….figured out that all by me onsey!
    (although I know every sorted Holocaust detail and Anne Frank’s book and play made me cry huge Jr Hi alligator tears, I knew nothing about the Holodomor thanks to curriculum that is actually a well planned deliberate mis-education movement. )

    “I believe that the most important question historians ask is, “what caused it, and what did it cause?”
    Well shoot….that’s pretty lame….”Who the hell was responsible?” might be a nice addition as well as “Why?
    ( but to ask these questions…and answer them correctly….publicly….well that may prove to be a serious problem…for those responsible…)

    The Confederate flag was turned into a “man made symbol of racism” with the cherry on top being the mis-education of millions of Americans and is used as a wedge driven between north and south…black and white… I agree with DC Dave. It is a media educational and government led movement that has been going on for decades that has made it so. Golly, I wonder who is behind that???? Bueller?????Bueller????

    “But most blacks would take it only one way.” Really? Perhaps not the ones who know the truth most likely. I did not graduate from college, but I would never make a blanket statement like that…It’s actually kinda…racist…..

    If the Confederate Flag of today breaks free and returns to it’s rightful place in meaning of origin as a symbol of a rebellion it won’t be because of the Media schools or the “government” (gee I am really having a hard time even calling “It” government…) I am a lady…I won’t say what I am thinking….use your imagination……

    The James Forrestal comment….Do you see smoke coming out of the north? Yes I am a Minnesotan….Not a Yankee….

    “But what did Forrestal’s death cause? There were obviously some things – grief for family and friends, for example. And, perhaps, an example of government lying, of which there have been many. But I haven’t seen anything that takes it much beyond this.”

    Well Mr History Professor, eat this,
    ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDIN ME? This is not just about lying…Pretty sure that is what James might tell you, if he were alive…

    I can take it WAAAAAAAAAY beyond garden variety lying which the HP makes it sound like its not really that a big deal…Just another example of how we have been conditioned to accept all of these types of lies as ..there have been “so many” as HP declares…(like he is justifying this as being nothing out of the ordinary or remarkable just because it happens a lot? ) Good Grief!

    DC Dave introduced me to the plight of Mr. Forrestal. I had never heard of him before, (again wondering why the hell not?) DC Dave enlightened me to who the man was, what he was about, and who were in his corner. (thanks Mr. Dave!)

    Here’s what understanding the circumstances surrounding Mr. Forrestal’s life and his death has done for me and should do for every American who still has a pulse.

    Nothing is as I thought it was.
    Those I thought were there to protect me and every other American Citizen from those who wish us ill will, were actually the bad guys. They live over here now not in Russia the country I was taught to hate.
    “They” still are the bad guys but now I understand the entity to be evil AND on some serious steroids, AND using my tax dollars to carry out their dirty deeds. (they have been selling baby body parts…did you know that? and using my tax dollars to do this heinous business)

    The lying has been going on for longer than I have been alive and it continues to ramp up and many American’s I know personally still blindly believe it all…Regardless of what you tell them…show them…prove to them….
    I can no longer trust that my government has my best interest at heart. ( I am rolling my eyes at myself right this moment)
    I am actually fearful of my government for the first time in my entire life…..and I have damn good reasons to be….

    Here is a good one…..
    Forrestal and many others have lost their lives in a war that has been going on in my homeland under my nose that I never even knew existed…

    I realize that my education along with well designed media messages were partially (well mostly) responsible for my placing my faith on the wrong altar….This was deliberate…The history professor and his ideology are proof positive that this “mission” has gone over quite well. They can count him as one of their foot soldiers who use academia as a weapon to warp history and minds.
    I was responsible for believing and buying it hook line and sinker….I never questioned the “Official Narrative” ( after decades of having my thought process bombarded from every angle evil could fathom.) I would never do these things to my country and my fellow Americans so why would they? Oh yeah….I forgot…forgive me…..
    I bought their “Piles of lies covered in flies.”

    Mr. Forrestal’s fate was just like that of the twin towers…. They were to be taken down and moved out of the way….as was he.
    I am not immune to any of this personally….none of us are…I unfortunately (or fortunately however you look at it) have LEARNED TO MUCH and realize that this poison is on it’s way to my front door. It is not a matter of if….It is when……
    Because if you stand up like the brave Mr. Forrestal and they will take you out and not lose a minutes sleep. He just got to the end of the line and into their heinous hands before me….This is what is planned for me and every other like minded individual who would NEVER say the words “If that is anti free speech so be it.”

    I am not free….I do not live in a free country…..I am a prisoner…..
    I am a slave….My husband is a slave…My children are slaves…..
    Pretty Ironic Eh?
    Guess I have to go buy a flag now…..Do they take trade ins?
    MNM

    Like

    • Hey there.

      (Things are good on the job front. Heavy travel and brief visits here)

      I, too, was first mystified that such secrets were so well hidden, but more important than any others in our lives. It still amazes me that so many people don’t get it.

      Understanding why the Forrestal murder (and Foster’s) is so significant is the connection Dave makes to Zionism. Forrestal was a very significant person who disavowed the Jews bogus claims to Palestine. And it cost him his life. When people get that link, they quickly see the Jew in the woodpile, as it were.

      The thing is, tho, that the entire woodpile is made up of Jews.

      Like

  5. Blacks need to be educated on the facts. Fact One: Slavery has always been a part of human society since the first war captive agreed to be enslaved rather than killed and the first borrower of money agreed to sign his wife and children over to the moneylenders in payment of a debt. [Historical Time frame: 5,500 years.] Fact Two: Slavery had always been a Jewish monopoly since the beginning of the Middle Ages. Only Jews dealt in slaves since only Jews could do business with both the Christians and Muslims. Fact Three: 99.9999% of slaves were white people who had either been enslaved by the Jewish moneylenders or captured in war. The word “slave” is derived from “Slav”, the Slavic people being the prime source of white slaves beginning in the Middle Ages and transshipped through Spain and Venice. Fact Three: The first slaves in the Americas were white people bought from the “debtors prisons” and were called “indentured servants.” But they didn’t do so well working under the hot, Southern sun; so the Jews brought blacks slaves into the Americas as cheap labor. [Historical time frame: about 500 years. Thus, while whites had been slaves of the moneylenders for 5,000 years, the blacks had been slaves of the moneylender Jews for only 500 years.] Fact Four: It was white, Christian peoples who fought the Civil War to the cost of a million white lives who freed the slaves. Fact Five: Once the Jews had made millions selling slaves to white planters, the Jews of London at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution decided that it was cheaper to make people into “wage slaves” than it was to actually own the physical laborers, themselves. The Jews already had the white people’s money in their pockets, now they decided to bankrupt the White Southern, Christian planters by declaring their slaves to be “free.” Each slave was worth about $20,000 modern-day dollars. So, the losses to the South would have been beyond reason. With the slaves freed, the only way the Southerners could keep their plantations going was to borrow money from the Jews.

    Modern blacks need to be educated as to the actual facts: the Jews were the slave merchants, it was white people who freed them at great cost; and after the Civil War it was the Jews who moved in with their carpet bags to buy up the destroyed South for cheap. And to cover up their Crimes Against Humanity, the Jews are vilifying and slandering and putting all blame on white people for slavery to this very day.

    Jesus and Hitler Told the Truth about the Jews; the Jews are Devils — Real Ones!

    Read my books and you will understand this.

    Like

    • Now, thanks to Murderer-in-Thief Hope and Change, the TPP and TAP agreements will turn most of the Western world into one huge plantation, with us wage slaves fighting over mind-numbing jobs that pay minimum wage.

      This is what we are willing to our kids, an added ring to Dante’s Hell.

      Like

      • No, we are not “willing our kids” anything other than the Sumerian Swindle IF we allow this banking scam to continue. As I prove in “The Sumerian Swindle”, all bankers are crooks and thieves. Lending money at interest is nothing other than larceny. Know that the bankers and financiers should all be imprisoned and their stolen wealth confiscated, and you know how to solve today’s monetary problems. Hang the bankers and free the nations.

        Like

        • I agree almost 100%. The thing is that I know an old man who was a VP of a bank (since retired). He is one of the kindest, giving men I ever met. We have had this discussion about how money is invented out of thin air and he agrees. But it is the system foisted upon us all.

          I guess what I am saying is that like all other areas of social life, there are segments brainwashed into submitting (I bought a home, hence, I submitted).

          Imprisoning, much less hanging that old man would not help matters, in my opinion.

          Like

          • This is the “Good Jew” argument, that is, “I know a Jew who is good therefore he absolves all other Jews from being evil.” Banking is an organized crime. Like all criminal organizations, each and every member is guilty of all crimes committed by even one of their members. That is the RICO Organized Crime code and it must be applied to banking and finance. Just because some old Mafia Don has retired, puts a smile on his face, gives candy to children and pats the neighbor’s dog on the head, does not mean that he should escape punishment for his crimes in the past.

            Besides swindling the nations of the world of our wealth, the bankers and financier promote, finance and profit from wars, poverty, diseases, famine, moneylending and other man-made disasters.

            Yes, that old, retired, friendly banker should be hung along with all of his relatives — but first they need to be tortured a bit to extract the hiding places of their loot, which is to be returned to their victims.

            Hang the Bankers and Free the Nations.

            Like

            • BB,

              The man is not Jewish. He is/was a banker of a small town rural bank. He is a very white southern gentlemen who has done much for this podunk community. To suggest that he and his family be tortured and hung is idiotic or suggests that you are a maniac, no better than the Jewish maniacs.

              Like

              • Whether he’s Jewish or not, he’s a banker. Look at the situation in the world today. The bankers determine the fate of entire nations. The bankers (using the ancient Sumerian Swindle) steal the wealth, the homes, the farms and the national treasure from individuals as well as entire countries. No matter the smile on their faces and their silk suits and manicured fingers, they are all thieves and swindlers. All banking is grand larceny. Read “The Sumerian Swindle” and you will understand. All bankers should be arrested along with their extended crime families and forced to return what they have stolen from the People. Hang the Bankers and Free the Nations. There is nothing maniac about that: to let the bankers swindle all wealth and all power from the People, now THAT is lunatic. Yet, the world allows these robbers to have a free hand at their subversive con game.

                Like

                • Indiscriminate calls for murder against a man you don’t know simply because you have an agenda is maniacal, Billy. Calling for murder of his loved ones which I care for and respect deeply is even worse. Anyone who has ever met his wife, children and grandchildren (one mows my lawn) would see you as a fool with the same sort of murder-lust found in many Jews.

                  In other words, you, sir, are a nutter who says really stupid shit.

                  Like

                • Okay, then just arrest and imprison the bankers. If you have a liberal bent, give them 20 years of hard labor for their Crimes against Humanity. Arrest the bankers and save the nations. There, is that better?

                  Like

  6. The good professor has finally tapped out. On July 29 I received this response: “Thanks for all you have written. It looks to me as though we have nothing more to say to each other.”

    Like

    • If his response is a permanent discontinuation of discussions no matter the subject (and not just this subject), I would qualify this as a Technical Knock Out over him tapping out.

      Like

  7. Everything You Were Taught about the Civil War Is Wrong, Ask a Southerner

    A reader’s review:

    As an European, I have been fed with lots of the propaganda the author describes in his book.
    Until a short time ago I had a quite standardized opinion about Lincoln’s war, although I never really shared the opinion about the Southerners as being racists or inhuman (I always get a little skeptical when too many people say the same thing and no-one argues against. Then I need to go check it out!).
    Because of that I started researching on my own, and kept finding new “perspectives” about this part of American history, information and data that did not fit in the picture I got served by the mass-media and the more known books and publications.
    Everyone who wants to use his own head and try to see through this “fog” can actually succeed sooner or later, but it really takes a lot of time and of efforts.
    This book is a compendium of the main lies and of the opposite viewpoint (or of the reality) to any of them, making the effort a lot easier.
    It should only be made more accessible to everyone, also outside of the US, where it is practically unknown.
    Also very interesting is the parallel one can immediately make with the current political situation between the EU and the single European member states.
    Big government against localism and individual cultures of the different people, an invasive bureaucracy of clerks -never elected by anyone- working on the homologation of all European citizens, an almost monolithic media system trying to bend the opinion of everyone to the politically correct views liberals and EU-bureaucrats want to force on everyone (and those who do not accept being homologated and “sterilized” are destroyed in their public image), a continuous delegitimization of democratically elected leaders as soon as they do not fit in the picture (see Hungary in these days, Italy for the past decade, Austria a few years ago), the destruction of the Christian religious feeling while portraying alien cultural models as an enrichment of society rather than as an invasion, and so on. All just to create the new divinity called European Market and allowing a few powerful groups to rule over 400 million people (doesn’t this look a lot like the main goal the Federals had during Lincoln’s war?).
    As soon as some politician tries to get some distance from the all-levelling and homologating politics of the EU dictatorship (it is really one!!!), he is immediately attacked, delegitimized and portrayed like an infamous racist or populist, opposed to the democratic and almost divine European liberal political ideals.
    If no means work in getting rid of him, his Country is attacked, exactly as it was once, just by other means. Once the Federals sent entire armies to invade the South, now Germans and French “send” the “spread” between their own Treasury Bonds and those of the victims (see what happened to Italy weeks ago) to get rid of the annoying problems.
    Democracy is being reduced to a hollow word, only economy and markets count!
    Another parallel can be seen concerning the regional political movements everywhere in Europe. They are attacked, delegitimized and prosecuted as soon as they appear, mostly ending up being politically destroyed. Only because they want to defend specific characteristics of their people (again, doesn’t this sound very much like what the author reveals in his book?).
    In a few words, this book tells about the ever repeating story of big arguments and superior ideals being exploited for the lowest power-related reasons, and about the distortion of truth in order to serve the lie being fed to the people.
    Something that is still going on today; maybe more now than 150 years ago!
    Someone said that a lie, if repeated thousands of times, becomes the truth!!! Northerners and EU bureaucrats surely know who it was;-)

    I wish everybody purchasing this excellent book an enlightening reading like the one I had, and hope that it will help many of them find the will for using their own brains whenever something starts smelling like homologation instead of truth.
    It takes patience and effort, but it usually pays back well!!!

    Like

  8. Nine of ten blacks don’t even know the origin of the word (slave) they gnash their teeth (and sharpen their knives ) over.
    If they’re not careful they’re going to (are) blow it, these simpletons who are manipulated like the Pavlovian dogs their behavior emulates.

    The #1 cause of death for young black men AND women is murder at the hands of black males. And the demonic abortions by the millions!
    See how you degrade and denigrate the religious and pious among you!
    The worship of demons and killers and miscreants with all the music, uniforms, rituals and barbaric behavior attendant MATTERS.

    Barbarian free thyself!

    Like

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